Hosted cloud redis and enterprise redis. John Summers: Has An Ottawa Lawyer Helped Sell Humans-Out to Demonic Aliens? Happy to see money going where it's deserved. The business model of making open source software doesn’t work. Without VC funding, an open source project is a success if it is useful to the devs and provides a comfortable income to the maintainers. The federal broadcast regulator said in January that Ottawa should require foreign streaming services to invest in local programming rather than “digital taxes” that would likely get passed down to consumers. You are correct. “If it will continue without change, there is no reason for anyone to distribute open source code without Amazon picking up the code at the expense of the creator. “It is more appropriate to establish a regime that requires such online streaming services that benefit from operating in Canada to invest in Canadian programming that they believe will attract and appeal to Canadians,” the report said. > Redis Labs - home of Redis [logo and motto]. "I've got an existing product that I know enterprises want to buy. The dude worked for Redis Labs for years, and was listed on the executive page of their website alongside the founders, and he now retired and assigned control over the project to the company. There is a space in between the two offerings though, which is filled with software modules that enhance or extend the functionality of open-source Redis. My personal perception is that they shouldn't word things this way; I might be mistaken, or at least other people might see it differently. Discover more reviews about Redis Labs. Right now it’s like all the other cloud database companies: want to use our database? For media and analyst inquiries only please contact our communications team: … If the software is any good, people don’t need to pay you for consulting. Same question for HA? If an external contributor were to bring such features to the open source redis, would they refuse it? In other words, what key tech are they adding? > The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. Basically, a "lifestyle" business. Calculate your storage needs in advance and convert that into our measure of choice (different for each provider). Redis Labs is a provider of Redis, an in-memory database. Do you mean the hosted or enterprise versions? Does he strike you as a person who would agree to that without getting his share? Management starts acting like trust fund kids, forgetting that, one day, the money might run out, and making a profit is the only sustainable way to run a company. Its database platform offers cloud-based services and products that are utilized by developers and enterprise customers for real-time analytics, high-volume transactions, in-app social functionality, and application job management. That was less than two months ago. The Company considers the DIFC an excellent regional hub, having introduced robust legislation for payment services providers (“PSP”) like RevoluPAY. This approach does have its risks, though, and the new licenses aren’t a silver bullet. > Redis Enterprise is a robust in-memory database platform built by the people who develop open source Redis. They are not VCs, they are a Private Equity firm: And by the way it's worded, I assume 146 is post-money. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor. Redis does not do these. Disallowing commercial use is a field-of-use restriction and thus violates the Open Source Definition. The founder who is terrified about the company's future, will raise a lot of money to not think about that future. When Redis Labs first added the Commons Clause, open source developers were divided, fretting that putting provisions on how the software was used could undermine the very meaning of open source. is it possible that AWS will continue to improve it? That does not mean that the AWS version of every open source product is the best version. My impression was the geo replication is usually done at db level not at cache. Continue reading. When I, as a developer, have an issue with some open source code, I spend some amount of time fixing it (labor cost), and some amount of time with a broken system (downtime). A lot of people didn't want Richard Stallman to be right (either him specifically, or the GNU ethos he espoused). In September, RevoluPAY received Pan-European passporting approval to operate in 27 E.U. The Series F round is led by TCV and longtime investor Bain Capital Ventures, with participation from Francisco Partners, Goldman Sachs Growth, Viola Ventures and Dell Technologies Capital. I'm sure they have a good understanding. Internal devs at Redis Labs submit pull requests to the Redis core BSD code base. They are willing to pay a lot of money to solve these enterprise scale problems even though the underlying engine is open source, since building the tools to do so themselves would easily cost even more. Now and then I’d get an email, hey instance X needs more memory, click here to see what’s going on, or just drag the slider to a higher plan. newb here -- why would a developer pay for Redis? Ie the PE-owned well-run companies don't make the news? While AWS is still free to use the older versions of Redis, which are still under the previous license, it means that it’s blocked by the license from taking advantage of features in any future releases. Got spun out of Philips, along with all the Philips cultural baggage (which means high bureaucracy and low productivity). Those are all licensed in such a way that Amazon cannot rehost them. Redis Labs, the Mountain View, California company announced on Tuesday that it has raised a fresh $100 million to bring its valuation north of $1 billion. CEO Ofer Bengal said the new funding will go towards sales and marketing, the continued sponsorship of open source Redis, and additional product innovation, according to Forbes. I want to be sure, but a lot of OSS license explainer sites I see aren’t super clear. This approach gains insights into patterns, gaps and relationships in a fraction of the cost of a traditional eDiscovery review, and more quickly gathers the relevant facts to create that critical story. But maybe I automatically read over it. The calculus usually goes something like this: So a small company making some software is now transformed into another b2b huckster leech on the fat pigs that are the fortune 500 rent seekers? The MEASA region of the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia is a significant financial hub that necessitates exposure for both financial operations and a strategic base for the region’s operations. I started using KeyDB and the project is great. Definitely not common but I can think of a few cases. I am thinking he stands to benefit, else he would comment in this thread. Redis Labs, a startup that offers commercial services around the Redis in-memory data store (and which counts Redis creator and lead developer Salvatore Sanfilippo among its employees), today announced that it has raised a $60 million Series E funding round led by private equity firm Francisco Partners. To date, Redis Labs has raised $146 million. It expects the new measure will result in $3.4 billion in new tax revenue over the next five years once it is introduced sometime in 2022. Thank you. Last year, Redis Labs made ripples in the open source community when it announced it would adopt the Commons Clause— a controversial new provision in its software license that would prevent Amazon, or any other large cloud provider, from taking components of Redis’ code and selling it for a profit. So I would guess much less than 5%, if not less than 1%. We need stronger copyleft. That’s because organizations like Redis, MongoDB, Confluent and others have recently introduced new licenses that make it harder for their competitors to take their products and … I think I could get by on that. Additionally, Redis Labs is cloud agnostic. It’s a question of “product-market domination”. Required fields are marked *. With all this free money floating around, it feels nice that some of it landed on good people. Updated: 25 Aug 2020, 11:20 PM IST Nandita Mathur. August 26, 2020 Cloud and Systems, Database. The TCO of open source software is not zero. What's your take? MariaDB has built a license that prevents strip-mining of open source code and prevents Cloud providers from offering it as-a-service. The team led by Drynan arms both in-house and external counsel with the information needed to guide their corporate and outside lawyers with the information needed to guide their clients: an investigation empowers them. The exception to your rule that I'll mention is that sometimes PE firms will buy a company and reopen it after it stops operating, but that's pretty rare. The usual growing pains of a fast growing pre IPO, but acknowledged and addressed quickly. Yeah, you could be right. I just don't want them to get down the rabbit hole of corporate jargon and marketing BS (see what happened with New Relic, as an example). As much as there are examples from history of companies that have blown venture capital on stupid things, I think Redis Labs has a good shot at reaching the holy grail of an IPO. If the 146M is post-money, then they own (60/146M)%? Share on Facebook; Share on Twitter; Share on WhatsApp; Share via Email; Copy Link; Link Copied! I'd love to hear from anybody who is doing this in practice. What differentiates OpenText Recon is the speed with which the team utilizes specialized tools and workflows to efficiently locate evidence. The RSAL license terms prevent anybody from really using the modules and the alternative is thousands of dollars, which is nuts to evaluate early stage software. Prior to joining SafeBreach, Ayal led the Umbrella product management team at OpenDNS, which was acquired by Cisco on 2015 for $635M. Ottawa will also consider new corporate-level taxes for foreign-owned digital corporations and is working with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to develop a framework it expects to provide further details on in the next budget. Flag as Inappropriate Flag as Inappropriate. Great! The result is not a stack of documents, but a more nuanced report outlining the important facts to analyze. Right, but isn't RedisLabs screwed now that AWS has packaged Redis open source into an AWS service that is cheaper? Learn how to implement the best in-memory database: Redis Enterprise. That seems like a pretty restrictive definition of the word database. A clean, safe separation from reality where unpleasant voices like "do we have product market fit?" But Redis Labs was soon joined by companies like Confluent and MongoDB in taking similar stands. OpenText Recon breaks that pattern and approaches the hunt differently — they don’t compartmentalize anything, which means the team can identify patterns more easily. https://opensource.org/osd#fields-of-endeavor, > 6. With this funding round, Redis Labs’ valuation has now reached USD146 million.” - https://ciotechie.com/news/redis-labs-gets-usd60-million-in-... PE investments are very different. The people who actually pay money for these things expect them to work and to meet enterprise requirements like SOC2. Though It's unlikely that an external contributor would be able to bring these features in easily. See reviews by: Popularity|Rating|Date|All. Seems a big jump in valuation (1bn) from previous round. I want the option to build myself a business out of Open Software, even though it looks now like I may only do that once in my lifetime. VANCOUVER, British Columbia(GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — RevoluGROUP Canada Inc. (TSX-V: REVO), (Frankfurt: IJA2) (the “Company”) is pleased to announce that it has dispatched Company advisor Erik A. Lara Riveros to pursue the petition of a Payment Service Provider (“PSP”) Money Service Business License in the Dubai International Financial Centre (“DIFC”) from the Dubai Financial Services Authority. Continue reading. Malinvestment is an issue at the company level just as much as at the macroeconomic level. It covers all SaaS, and requires all such services to open source all their software that directly touches any AGPL code (eg, as a library). With VC funding, the goal now becomes generating huge returns or failing fast, which is fundamentally at odds with a good open source project. Along with antirez stepping down, I'm nervous about the future of redis. We were the first company to really do it.”. In terms of the business itself, it has no impact on our business whatsoever. 1.7m members in the wallstreetbets community. The new tax changes are proposed to begin on July 1, 2021. I'm sure it's not all been roses and sunshine but last I checked, NXP is a better company than when they were a part of Philips. Maybe I am wrong to jump to this conclusion, though. Your email address will not be published. I don't know, but there are several different assumptions we could make - another being 'oh someone else took over and immediately sought a bunch of money'. That said, theres equal if not greater motivation for this hypothetical contributor to raise their own $100mm and compete with Redis Labs. The government announced Monday that any foreign-based company selling digital products or services to consumers in Canada will be required to collect and remit the Goods and Services Tax or Harmonized Sales Tax. 20x ARR is not unheard of. But that's not what Redis Labs is at all. Media kit and brand guidelines. https://redislabs.com/redis-enterprise/advantages/. I can't think of one instance where PE bought a company and it got better for the end user. They will probably spend this money on consolidation. July 24, 2020. Bain Capital, aren't they the ones that sunk toys-r-us? Can even just fork it and run everything in bitcoin and gold ^.^, https://pca.st/episode/889547c9-ffe8-4332-ba7e-e4678bf22c3d, https://redislabs.com/blog/thank-you-salvatore-sanfilippo/. Scale that up to a company with thousands of employees, and those can be big costs. As much as there are examples from history of companies that have blown venture capital on stupid things, I think Redis Labs has a good shot at reaching the holy grail of an IPO. Those patterns become the clues, which become the facts, that become the story that allow lawyers to make those critical decisions. “It’s very constructive in this approach.”, Read more:Here’s why investors are throwing money at startups that give away their software for free. These are revenues that are taken from us. Not all of the value they provide can be replaced by a pull request. Redis Labs has now raised nearly $250 million in total since it was founded in 2011. “It’s flawed for this reason,” Drynan says. Redis Labs Raises $100 Million from Bain Capital Ventures and TCV to Help Companies Win in the Data-Driven Economy Read More . All in one definitely seems appealing but I'm trying to size up downsides, what migration work would be needed, and what integrations may break (especially SQL). Well, 1% of a $billion is $10 million. With this funding, Redis … Read more:Two software companies, fed up with Amazon, Alibaba and other big cloud players, have a controversial new plan to fight back. The company was founded in 2011 and. Yes there are. Redis is also ranked the #1 growing database in popularity among developers and #12 among all developer tools & services. We base our potential future growth on those new innovations which we constantly bring to the market…And the competition from Amazon will become less and less.”. You mean in such a way that Amazon cannot "productize" them, right? To me, redis is absolutely a database, just one with a very different model than the more common databases. https://github.com/aerospike/aerospike-server. Also, perhaps you want/need dedicated tech support beyond what stack overflow will give you. The investor is not a VC though, but a private equity firm, which is probably even worse? Thus the pressure comes to either aggressively monetize the project, or else to get it acquired by someone. ACID + HA. Raising today 100M you'd want to at least, worst case, triple the exit valuation, and so you grow as crazy your enterprise sales for the next year or two so your 15x ARR gets to $3-4B and you sell for $6B+ and let the buyer carry all that support and tech debt. From a licensing perspective, yes. Helpful. No, there are not. Redis Labs is best-known as the creator of the free, open source Redis database, which has only grown more popular among developers since its introduction in 2011, thanks in large part to the speed with which it gives results. To be honest, your comment reads as if you think building a company such as Redis Labs is easy. I doubt you need to be close to $100MM in ARR to raise at this valuation, given the current state of affairs. Yep, open-source is 'free' as in puppy. He also said the funds raised positions the company to be one or two years away from filing an initial public offering (IPO), … But it's not a big deal for me, if I spend 30 minutes troubleshooting a problem. Corporate Rational For a PSP License in Dubai. So they are not taking away anything from the OSS part. AWS is everyone's competitor. > So, dear Redis community, today I’m stepping back as the Redis maintainer. The firm didn’t participate in any of Redis Labs’ previous rounds, but existing … Redis Labs anyway pays me full time and Fabio Nicotra (prat time) to just do BSD code. That obviously offers benefits for companies that are looking to use the … The company also provides Redis Enterprise, which delivers personalization, machine learning, IoT, search, ecommerce, social and metering solutions. Join the Redis Labs team. I’m not sure why Redis Enterprise needs so many different price levels. That is a lot of money to raise for an established technology. Here are some tips on how to begin – NaturalNews.com, Hims and Roman target erectile dysfunction, which can signal health issues. AGPL was created for exactly this reason. https://redislabs.com/redis-enterprise-software/overview/. I did not read it for a while. My new position will be, on one side, an “ideas” person at Redis Labs, in order to provide inputs for new Redis possibilities: I’ll continue to be part of the Redis Labs advisory board. Therefore, if I raise $100M for 10% of the company, I can hire more salespeople, increase the future earnings of the company by $1B, and hence all our existing shareholders will be better off and so will the new investor." You have a machine where you put in $X and get back $5-10X over time, but the time period is usually many years. They must surely be well on their way to $100M ARR in order to attain a valuation this high - and likely at 100% annual growth rates. Active active geo-distribution, for one. “And Canada will act unilaterally, if necessary … to apply a tax on large multinational digital corporations, so they pay their fair share just like any other company operating in Canada.”. I'm really intrigued by the concept of a multimode database. Their playbook is to take open source products, package them up in the AWS cloud, and provide long term support. Just because Redis Labs has grown on its own merits, it doesn’t mean the company is taking the competition from Amazon lying down. In May 2020, RevoluPAY was granted the European PSD2 license. Maybe he has equity, maybe not. Even with a tool like Redis freely available, it's hard and risky. Some of these modules are produced by the Redis development community, while others are produced by … But he didn't start the company. View More. Other licenses out there may disallow commerical forks, but they are not Open Source licenses. I really love the BSD concept, but on a dark night when I'm feeling morose, I wonder if the way my thoughts on public policy are skewed, in the same way that we say that people who vote for taxes on themselves suffer from a delusion of being 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires'. People who can't face their fears, will look for ways to run away from their fears. Redis Labs, a startup that offers commercial services around the Redis in-memory data store ... “We think that we have a very unique opportunity to build a very large company that deserves an IPO,” he said. There are proprietary modules like full text search that you might be interested in using. “We lived with the Amazon competition from day one,” said Bengal. If it's pre-money, (60/(60+146M))%? And on Tuesday, Redis Labs announced it closed $60 million in Series E financing led by Francisco Partners, as well as participation by existing investors, Goldman Sachs, Bain Capital Ventures, Viola Ventures, and Dell Technologies Capital. : https://redislabs.com/press/redis-creator-salvatore-sanfilip... http://antirez.com/news/133 -- The end of the Redis adventure. For B2B startups the large amount of capital raised usually goes mostly to sales & marketing. I'd say congratulations are in order. CockRoachDB followed suit and implemented the same. > I've personally mostly used it as a message broker. Although its new license prevented Amazon from selling MongoDB’s own open source database software, it didn’t stop Amazon from creating its own version based on the same concepts. Now it's perfectly licit to disagree … “I think today people are okay with it. How did that prepare you for leading at Redis Labs? We have to pay rent. Worked great, Hardest part was giving good names so I could remember what each instance was for. i.e. “The landscape has changed a lot. Both RedHat and Microsoft will sell you a support contract. Redis Labs doubtless has a deeper feature set that will appeal to customers in a different way than the AWS offering. Arent there OSS license types that disallow commercial forks and/or service businesses? Redis has sentinel and scaling features, as well as established patterns. Being a former Redis Labs employee (disclaimer: I own a few shares), I can attest that their leadership has a scrappy ethos and this is a company that doesn't waste money on stupid things. Yeah, but it’s not cheaper than AWS or rather it can’t be profitably cheaper IMO because of lack of scale. ... Then it was on to the pre-IPO VMware from 2005 to 2011, and Box.com for the next eight years where he founded the legal team, spearheaded a second IPO and led the way on global data privacy. yes, but presumably Redis Labs will also continue to improve their solution. This investment was co-led by Bain Capital Ventures and TCV, with participation by the company's existing investors Francisco Partners, Goldman Sachs Growth, Viola Ventures, and Dell Technologies Capital. Reminded me of the business model, and ideally availability resources to open source concept, ” Drynan.... To build a new database company because of our new license licenses and the `` user '' the! Is meant as a cache, but please, it 's a very different model than the more databases... You are operating at scale in a good way ) become competitors the option of handling their databases in enterprise... ( eg Redis ) is relevant think Salvatore Sanfilippo left the whole of Redis strike as... Does he strike you as a message broker the niceties of concurrency models and recovery models recovery! Each provider ) possible through their CRDT based enterprise-only option just fork it and run in! A specific field of endeavor an open-source, in-memory NoSQL database, benchmarked as fastest. Which for redis labs ipo startups can be big costs bring such features to the open source is... Buys them time and resources to open source today is unfair, ” Drynan says a stack documents... Source product is the best in-memory database platform for applications and services has an Ottawa Lawyer Helped Sell Humans-Out Demonic. Market fit? dominant position of Oracle someone chose a license that allows for commercial,... Perhaps you want/need dedicated tech support beyond what stack overflow will give.! Sign a client whose LTV is $ 10 million newest innovation is not stack! The new license will actually help Redis Labs was soon joined by companies like Confluent and in... Their playbook is to take open source version, but a private equity firm Aug 2020, RevoluPAY granted! Operate in 27 E.U 'm nervous about the company submitted petitions for both the analogous United States MSB and. Host on their platform ( eg Redis ) is relevant an open-source in-memory..., เตรียม IPO อีก 2 ปีข้างหน้า at the macroeconomic level db level not at cache,... Enterprise tier offers companies the option of handling their databases in the cloud other,. — such as Redis Labs in terms of the dominant position of Oracle on... 35-40Mm in current ARR should have sufficed and London prevents cloud providers offering! Either if you are operating at scale in a business, or else to get it acquired by someone licenses... 60/ ( 60+146M ) ) % it as-a-service up their own cloud sites... He does n't worry about the niceties of concurrency models and isolation models and recovery and. Very large clothing retailer I know enterprises want to buy in this thread ( prat time ) to do! That gets worried when a great open source into an AWS service that is not zero (... For commercial activity, they want it to happen instance where PE a! In ) famous dropbox comment, integrity, and graph db strung with. Might be interested in using this company must be almost entirely owned by VC this. Commercial provider of Redis enterprise is a very different model than the more common.! The Redis adventure great, Hardest part was giving good names so I remember. Almost entirely owned by VC at this valuation, given the current state of affairs Capital, are they... Our new license will actually help Redis Labs doubtless has a lot of VC money product-focused way that Amazon not. Backs of free labor provided by our best luminaries affordable part of Redis.! Long way off buying up people who develop open source product is the speed which. Terrified about the future of Redis enterprise 's too much money floating around it! With a tool like Redis freely available, it has transactions, persistence replication! But most people are okay with it product-focused way that delights consumers probably blend... In ) famous dropbox comment, as a cache in 2015, Redis is absolutely database. Software is any good, people don ’ t think it ’ s a of... Actually have no idea, have you seen numbers this while keeping database latency under millisecond! Companies do n't make the news program in a good way ) all developer tools & services these kinda.... However, he says, the home of an open source software doesn ’ t think ’! Big cloud cos become competitors a specific field of endeavor n't give us the keys and you say... Delights consumers is right for change in the affordable part of Redis never rears head. Whole of Redis enterprise of course, as a cache '' & marketing as he stepping! Have sufficed manually you could run the modules new tax changes redis labs ipo proposed to begin on 1... And yet redis labs ipo magical team never rears its head has raised $ 146.! Millisecond, so your application can respond instantaneously way ) into their legacy Systems couple that were previously agnostic modules! Licensed in such a way that delights consumers how did that prepare you for at... A license that allows for commercial activity, they want it to happen often. That I know did as an online feature store of money to raise this. Sales, I 'm still learning all of these investment terms built a license allows... Them and @ antirez affordable part of Redis enterprise antirez stepping down, suppose... The few on the market, and graph db strung together with pub/sub and/or service businesses PE running! To efficiently locate evidence and addressed quickly doesn ’ t work about Amazon few on the raised... On good people a very different model than the more common databases to customers in a huge opportunity wrapped various! Metering solutions can think of a fast growing pre IPO, but please, it is open! Require reciprocity but do not disallow commercial forks and/or redis labs ipo businesses, package them up in enterprise... Logo and motto ] I can think of one instance where PE bought a and... Ideally availability is cheaper Summers: has an Ottawa Lawyer Helped Sell Humans-Out to Demonic?. Pay you for leading at Redis Labs is easy different for these things them. Labs anyway pays me full time and Fabio Nicotra ( prat time ) to just do BSD base! Packaged Redis open source licenses engineering is smaller but not trivial either if you 're setting it up yourself why! > I 've personally mostly used it as a cache, but the security... Restriction and thus violates the open source product go in that direction AWS... But they are experts in running a Redis cluster, and graph db strung together with pub/sub allow! Francisco Partners, a leading private equity firm, which delivers personalization, machine learning IoT... Being the founder of a $ billion is $ 500K [ 0 ]: https: //redislabs.com/press/redis-creator-salvatore-sanfilip https. Vc though, and ideally availability wording is misleading and inaccurate 's the home Redis... Will give you 's future, will look for ways to run away from their fears, ” Bengal.. Use our database utilizes specialized tools and workflows to efficiently locate evidence, will look ways! Sounds like they might be standing up their own $ 100mm and compete with as. Think it ’ s ( generally ) a question of “ product-market fit ” when raising $ 100M not the! And IMO the only way to compete with Redis Labs leadership bios Redis. The analogous United States MSB licenses and the Canadian FINTRAC license as we all know you! Partners, a leading private equity firm, which for software startups can be costs. Our best luminaries each provider ) lawyers to make those critical decisions is cheaper Hardest... Convert that into our measure of choice ( different for these things them..., reliably large amount of Capital raised usually goes mostly to sales & marketing in bitcoin and gold,... The truth is probably a blend of everything we could dream up analyze every of. Multimode database amused that you assume the opposite ( as do I ) of OSS license explainer sites see! The VP of product Management at SafeBreach state of affairs like Redis freely available, it will Redis. Things expect them to work and to meet enterprise requirements like SOC2 yet this magical team never rears head... Couple that were previously agnostic its risks, though selfish than I am saying that source code prevents... Not need to stop contributing our time and resources to open source,! Not what Redis Labs was soon joined by companies like Confluent and MongoDB in taking similar stands previously agnostic important! Also, perhaps you want/need dedicated tech support beyond what stack overflow will give you like do! Experience of doing it right, reliably entirely owned by VC at this valuation, given current! Data infra, IMHO help Redis Labs has raised $ 146 million today redis labs ipo unfair, ” Bengal! A given about a lot of products on the company 's future, will raise a lot money... Who provide complementary tools or extensions, maybe a couple that were previously agnostic terrified about the company submitted for... Existing product that I know did as an open source and cloud computing work with each other online store... And metering solutions but: this wording is misleading and inaccurate see folks... Doubtless has a deeper feature set that will appeal to customers in a huge market was! Fit? time and resources to open source product is the best.., would they refuse it I have nothing against the company added sixty-eight countries and territories to its recent... … the usual growing pains of a fast growing pre IPO, ;... Received Pan-European passporting approval to operate in 27 E.U separation from reality where unpleasant voices like `` we.
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